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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 03:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Caldari stuff is notoriously slow....... unless specifically kitted out for speed..... then its about as fast as it gets.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 03:51:00 -
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medomai grey wrote:True Adamance wrote:Caldari stuff is notoriously slow....... unless specifically kitted out for speed..... then its about as fast as it gets. By this logic, shouldn't the Caldari tank have more EHP than the Gallente tank in exchange for being slower?
Not really..... you don't really find those distinctions in EVE..... Caldari stuff is slow and has a lot of EHP...... Gallente ships are moderately fast for armour tankers....... and also have solid EHP....and drones.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 04:12:00 -
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medomai grey wrote:True Adamance wrote:medomai grey wrote:True Adamance wrote:Caldari stuff is notoriously slow....... unless specifically kitted out for speed..... then its about as fast as it gets. By this logic, shouldn't the Caldari tank have more EHP than the Gallente tank in exchange for being slower? Not really..... you don't really find those distinctions in EVE..... Caldari stuff is slow and has a lot of EHP...... Gallente ships are moderately fast for armour tankers....... and also have solid EHP....and drones. But the Caldari tank has less base EHP than the Gallente tank while also being slower. The point being made is, why should players use Caldari tanks when Gallente tanks are faster and have more EHP.
Really?
All Gal Tanks have over Caldari Tanks is reps. They most certainly do not have more EHP.
5300 Shield *1.4 = 7420 (modified my regen) + 1500 Armour = 8920
Not to mention the flexibility of mounting 2 ADV Rail Turrets and a Prototype Missile Turret. Enabling you to effectively mount 3 players in a Gunlogi like this and never have issues with any enemy tank on field through sheer DPS and endurance. Has fair mobility, great tracking, and av top speed.
On the other hand you can barely fit a prototype turret, basic module Armour tank, and can't if ever fit small turrets for enhanced DPS.
Best tank from a Madrugar is (though I can buffer tank an HAV to around 10K EHP with no reps if I stack plates)
4000 Armour *1.25 = 5000 Armour (modified my reps) = 1200 = 6200
No small turrets or better modules than a ADV hardener, Proto Repper, and Adv repper..... due to lack of CPU and the inability to mod it out to expand your fitting capacity without reducing your tank.
So here you compare a modularly superior and more flexible HAV with vastly more fire power (the Gunlogi) designed to be used solo (with the potential for more EHP) and in a squad vs a tank that is effectually designed to be played solo with most of the AV and Vehicle Turrets weapons in the game having bonus damage against it. Additionally has less mobility and can only beat out the Gunlogi is straight sprints.
Who would complain about Shield HAV?
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 04:19:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:medomai grey wrote:True Adamance wrote:Caldari stuff is notoriously slow....... unless specifically kitted out for speed..... then its about as fast as it gets. By this logic, shouldn't the Caldari tank have more EHP than the Gallente tank in exchange for being slower? Not really..... you don't really find those distinctions in EVE..... Caldari stuff is slow and has a lot of EHP...... Gallente ships are moderately fast for armour tankers....... and also have solid EHP....and drones. How does that apply to Dust? We don't have any drones
Pointing out that players denying the traditional root of Dust, New Eden and EVE (the successful half of the franchise) is foolish. You either want a game set in New Eden, therefore the established rules and racial trends of EVE races are followed closesly, or you do not, and you can ignore them.
But don' t pretend like the current iterations of the vehicles accurately reflect their races combat doctrines.
Fitting out an HAV should be the same as fitting out a frigate module wise.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 04:23:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I'm trying to understand your "regen modification" but I can't. We are talking about base hp:
Gunnlogi = 2500hp + 1500hp = 4000hp total
Madrugar = 1200hp + 4000hp = 5200hp total
I would say that difference is significant. You are adding shield extenders to the gunnlogi in your example but not armor plates for the madrugar.
And you're talking about Missile tanks........NOTHING beats a Madrugar with a blaster turret 1v1.
Why have you not accouted for optimised fittings. You are choosing base hulls and telling me that you believe that is an accurate indicator of which tank to pick?
I mention the regen modifier because it affects EHP, however I do not have the mathematical bent to work out the effect that armour reps have on EHP.
As for the Blaster thing? Really? You can't either blap them as they approach or have the durability on your HAV to last the..... less than 10 second reload speed (with skills)?
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 04:26:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
The successful half of the franchise....congrats...because these games barely affect one another. But if you're going to talk consistency then let the same rule apply to dropsuits as well. Gallente suits should be faster than caldari suits but they aren't. What about ADS? Is there a speed difference in shield and armor dropships?
I don't see why they don't already follow the racial combat doctrines? It's a design flaw that never truly made sense to me. Also give that we do have gravity to contend with perhaps the racial roles in terms of mobility should be inverted?
Who knows. Perhaps that was the original intent.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 04:31:00 -
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TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:
*Denies the balanced and successful half of the game in favour or community regulated bullshit we have now .
Coolio bro..... but I think you are simplifying EVE far too much..... Point and click? What about orbits and transversals? Active Module activation, ammo switching, kiting and range, drone control, manoeuvring (use of orbital bodies and way points)?
All I am saying is that the question was raised "why are Caldari tanks slower than Gallente tanks" answer is "who knows what CCP Shanghai is thinking. However traditionally Caldari things are relatively slow."
Then the assumption was made that Cal tanks have less EHP which is often times wholly untrue. However Caldari tanks are active tanks, they trade long term durability for short term power.
I mean given the Protofits site allows me to have and 11k EHP Gunlogi..........
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 04:35:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
So, they get higher ehp and speeds and all gunnlogis have is maneuverability. Maddys also rep armor much better than gunnlogi shields because there is no delay. Plus their armor hardeners are better than shield hardeners. Not to mention, some of these armor tanks appear to maneuver with ease, especially when they hit that fuel injector.
Maneuverability hardly seems to be a great tradeoff
It is if you are trying to get around the battlefield or need to GTFO of the battlefield. It especially will become more valuable to use a Gunnlogi since Rattatai has mentioned for the Delta patch that they might be nerfing the effectiveness of injectors on tanks. It's also easier to maneuver a Missile or Rail Turret on a Gunnlogi since the Gunnlogi can turn faster while stationary. It is easier to maneuver them.....sure but it is moot when you're fighting a fuel injected maddy with a blaster turret. They have more health, faster, and mods are better.
NO THEY DON'T HAVE MORE EHP, unless the two repairers contribute 3000EHP over the duration of the fight, which they very well might.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 04:40:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:Caldari stuff is notoriously slow....... unless specifically kitted out for speed..... then its about as fast as it gets. There is no other instance in Dust where a gallente item is faster than a caldari item. Even back in the closed beta, the type 1 assault suits were slower than the type II assault suits. Madrugars are stacked with 4000hp or armor, I don't understand the logic of why it's faster than a gunnlogi. Maddy's already have the advantage of having more health and their hardeners are better. Why are they faster? try playing eve. gallente stuff is faster and caldari stuff is slower for the most part. its call racial playstyle. when you have a drake that can sit between 2 hostile battleships for 20 minutes without taking any damage you dont need to be able to move fast. try playing Streetfighter Ken is faster but Ryu is stronger (you get my point?)
So you would say.
"Hey next street fighter game lets have Ken be stronger and Ryu be faster. It might wholly go against the premise of the characters and the X years of history this franchise has put forwards but hell what the **** do we care if the characters are not done justice."
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 04:53:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Yes....please speak slower and explan how the madrugar ehp is lower than a gunnlogi
Lets take two sets of fits
Standard Hulls
Gunlogi
2650 Shield 1500 Armour = 4150
Madrugar
1200 Shields 4000 Armou = 5200
This is reflective of their total HP. These values are not modified by any modules.
Now lets take two more optimised fits that I would use.
Gunlogi
2x Complex Shield Extenders
1x Advanaced Shield Hardener
1x Complex PG Upgrade
1x ADV 120mm Plates
1x XT-201
2x Partical Accelerator
(Yes I can fit all of this on with maxed skills)
5300 Shields 2950 Armour = 8250 HP (not yet modified by the Shield Hardener) means this is rHP (real HP)
5300 x 1.4 = 7420 Shields + 2950 Armour = 10370 EHP (effective HP)
Madrugar
1x Neutron Blasters
2x Complex Heavy Armour Reppers
1x Basic Armour Hardener
1x Nitrous Injector
0x Small Turrets
(this is all I can fit as CPU is too tight)
1200 Shields 4000 Armour = 5200 rHP
1200 Shields 4000 Armour (modified by the 275 reps per second) = X HP or the correct EHP
or you can try to buffer tank a madrugar
3x 120mm plates (2x 120mm 1x 60mm)
1x Nitrous
1x Ion Cannon
1200 Shields 8454 Armour = 9654
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 04:57:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Yes....please speak slower and explan how the madrugar ehp is lower than a gunnlogi
he has been, youre not listening take regen, resists, range, rofs and 'true' or 'optimized' fittings into account and you might actually learn something instead of sperging about. Ok, let's talk regen and resists..... Armor mods rep instaneously as opposed to shield regen which has a few seconds delay before it starts up. I can't remember exact % of resistance but i do remember that armor hardeners last longer than shield hardeners. Since armor mods rep instanteously, you can gain some health in between shots. But shield regen isn't fast enough to help you in a 1v1. So....again....explain to me how the madrugar's ehp is lower than a gunnlogis'?
It's basically down to duration of a fight.
Over time the Maddy become more powerful as its reps have extended EHP significantly more than its total HP.
However Shield HAV trades duration of combat effectiveness for short term effectiveness. Now personally I'd never take a Blaster Gunlogi against a Blaster Maddy since the blaster game is about how long you can survive and manage heat, in a blaster on blaster fight the Maddy has a clear advantage. Any other turret (even again a Blaster maddy) and the Gunlogi has the advantage. By being able to pump out alpha or DPS (railgun or Missiles) not to mention being more modular and allowing for a full compliment of Gunners to add their DPS to the fight.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 04:59:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:But still..even if you wanted to keep things inline with eve then the dropsuits, lavs, dropships, should all apply the same ideas. Even down to the weapons (faster ROF, more power, etc)
We have been saying that since day fcking one. People such as yourself have been clamouring for a different game the entire time. Just stop. Because it is a different game. Either way...it doesn't matter to me because it's all numbers. But it should be consistent and I don't necessarily mean consistent with eve. It should be consistent in Dust. If armor gear is faster than shield gear, then it should apply to dropsuits as well as tanks.
* face palm.
You exist IN NEW EDEN!
THE SAME PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE SPACESHIPS AND TURRETS MAKE YOUR DROPSUITS AND WEAPONS......
The same design philosophies should apply to both.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 05:06:00 -
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As much as I lament that the original ideal of Dust was corrupted........ I really am just here to point out how good Caldari Tanks are.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 05:14:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Yes....please speak slower and explan how the madrugar ehp is lower than a gunnlogi
Lets take two sets of fits Standard Hulls Gunlogi 2650 Shield 1500 Armour = 4150 Madrugar 1200 Shields 4000 Armou = 5200 This is reflective of their total HP. These values are not modified by any modules. Now lets take two more optimised fits that I would use. Gunlogi 2x Complex Shield Extenders 1x Advanaced Shield Hardener 1x Complex PG Upgrade 1x ADV 120mm Plates 1x XT-201 2x Partical Accelerator (Yes I can fit all of this on with maxed skills) 5300 Shields 2950 Armour = 8250 HP (not yet modified by the Shield Hardener) means this is rHP (real HP) 5300 x 1.4 = 7420 Shields + 2950 Armour = 10370 EHP (effective HP) Madrugar 1x Neutron Blasters 2x Complex Heavy Armour Reppers 1x Basic Armour Hardener 1x Nitrous Injector 0x Small Turrets (this is all I can fit as CPU is too tight) 1200 Shields 4000 Armour = 5200 rHP 1200 Shields 4000 Armour (modified by the 275 reps per second) = X HP or the correct EHP or you can try to buffer tank a madrugar 3x 120mm plates (2x 120mm 1x 60mm) 1x Nitrous 1x Ion Cannon 1200 Shields 8454 Armour = 9654 Thank you for speaking slow enough for me :) Now, I just want to be practical (going from what I've seen on the field and not just numbers). If you're in a 1v1 with a maddy and you have a railgun...you're going to get smoked. Especially with that fit that you displayed because you'll probably need maybe 5 or 6 shots to take it down once their hardeners are on and you have an advanced turret with no damage mods. If the fight lasts long enough, their armor hardeners will outlast your shield hardeners and couple with the armor reps it will chew through all of that hp. While your rail is reloading, overheated, or if you pause in between shots...their tank is repping armor at 275hp per sec. At the same time, they are doing constant damage to your shields so your shields will never have enough delay to regen. Couple all of that with a fuel injector and speed for the maddy....it's over. Now, if the maddy wasn't as fast, it may be easier to deal with in 1v1 situations.
Which is why you cannot play a Gunlogi like a Maddy.
You cannot treat and engagement the same way. For example....brawling with a Blaster tank while in a rail is always stupid without damage mods to alpha through those reps + hardener.
However the point is you said Gunlogis don't have EHP = to Armour tanks...... on paper they do, and its because of that shield tanks are the ultimate IMO for anti Tank combat.
Great manoeuvrability, more modular (aka you can fit them out more specifically), can take any turret type.
Now if you compared those two HAV fits in their prime. Maddy is a tough fight. But combined DPS , while 2x ADV rail guns break the reps and hardener of the Armour tank means you will come out on top every time.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 05:18:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:As much as I lament that the original ideal of Dust was corrupted........ I really am just here to point out how good Caldari Tanks are. Everything is "good" in their own way. But when you put them against each other on the battlefield...that's where you see superiority. Every gear, weapon, etc shouldn't have a clear advantage over another. They should fit the playerstyle of the player and that would determine the victor.
In my mind Caldari tanks are vastly superior.
For the reasons I have stated but also because its a better anti infantry platform.....seriously try leaving the hardener on that fit on and manning a small turret....... ignores AV......gets +5 kills.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 05:20:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Yes....please speak slower and explan how the madrugar ehp is lower than a gunnlogi
Lets take two sets of fits Standard Hulls Gunlogi 2650 Shield 1500 Armour = 4150 Madrugar 1200 Shields 4000 Armou = 5200 This is reflective of their total HP. These values are not modified by any modules. Now lets take two more optimised fits that I would use. Gunlogi 2x Complex Shield Extenders 1x Advanaced Shield Hardener 1x Complex PG Upgrade 1x ADV 120mm Plates 1x XT-201 2x Partical Accelerator (Yes I can fit all of this on with maxed skills) 5300 Shields 2950 Armour = 8250 HP (not yet modified by the Shield Hardener) means this is rHP (real HP) 5300 x 1.4 = 7420 Shields + 2950 Armour = 10370 EHP (effective HP) Madrugar 1x Neutron Blasters 2x Complex Heavy Armour Reppers 1x Basic Armour Hardener 1x Nitrous Injector 0x Small Turrets (this is all I can fit as CPU is too tight) 1200 Shields 4000 Armour = 5200 rHP 1200 Shields 4000 Armour (modified by the 275 reps per second) = X HP or the correct EHP or you can try to buffer tank a madrugar 3x 120mm plates (2x 120mm 1x 60mm) 1x Nitrous 1x Ion Cannon 1200 Shields 8454 Armour = 9654 Thank you for speaking slow enough for me :) Now, I just want to be practical (going from what I've seen on the field and not just numbers). If you're in a 1v1 with a maddy and you have a railgun...you're going to get smoked. Especially with that fit that you displayed because you'll probably need maybe 5 or 6 shots to take it down once their hardeners are on and you have an advanced turret with no damage mods. If the fight lasts long enough, their armor hardeners will outlast your shield hardeners and couple with the armor reps it will chew through all of that hp. While your rail is reloading, overheated, or if you pause in between shots...their tank is repping armor at 275hp per sec. At the same time, they are doing constant damage to your shields so your shields will never have enough delay to regen. Couple all of that with a fuel injector and speed for the maddy....it's over. Now, if the maddy wasn't as fast, it may be easier to deal with in 1v1 situations. Which is why you cannot play a Gunlogi like a Maddy. You cannot treat and engagement the same way. For example....brawling with a Blaster tank while in a rail is always stupid without damage mods to alpha through those reps + hardener. However the point is you said Gunlogis don't have EHP = to Armour tanks...... on paper they do, and its because of that shield tanks are the ultimate IMO for anti Tank combat. Great manoeuvrability, more modular (aka you can fit them out more specifically), can take any turret type. Now if you compared those two HAV fits in their prime. Maddy is a tough fight. But combined DPS , while 2x ADV rail guns break the reps and hardener of the Armour tank means you will come out on top every time. I wouldn't engage a maddy like that but unless you're a redline rail tanker.....you may get caught in that situation just for being on the field. If you play a maddy how you're supposed to..then it doesn't matter how much ehp you have. You have to flank and get them with all of your shots before they can react to run or fight back. All of those shields, etc matters if you're facing another gunnlogi rail. Maddy > Gunnlogi all day...even a maddy railtank is better
Lets not get too overly technical. You are explaining how you would win a fight........not really how it always goes in a tank duel......especially when I roll ontop of a blaster an nullify is blaster......
Poor mechanics ftw!
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 20:54:00 -
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Vulpes Dolosus wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:Caldari stuff is notoriously slow....... unless specifically kitted out for speed..... then its about as fast as it gets. There is no other instance in Dust where a gallente item is faster than a caldari item. Even back in the closed beta, the type 1 assault suits were slower than the type II assault suits. Madrugars are stacked with 4000hp or armor, I don't understand the logic of why it's faster than a gunnlogi. Maddy's already have the advantage of having more health and their hardeners are better. Why are they faster? It was like that when I got here? I don't know all the reasons, but I knew, have wondered the same, but haven't focused on it as a problem. The problem is that Madrugars can, at the same time, have more tank(native to armor), gank (damage mod that doesn't effect defense), and speed (same as damage mod) than a Gunnlogi. The base theory of shield tanking is get in with large bursts of hp and damage and get out to cool down.
But they cannot be fit as well due to ludicrously low CPU values, about half that of the Gunlogi which also has roughly the same PG.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 20:56:00 -
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Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
The successful half of the franchise....congrats...because these games barely affect one another. But if you're going to talk consistency then let the same rule apply to dropsuits as well. Gallente suits should be faster than caldari suits but they aren't. What about ADS? Is there a speed difference in shield and armor dropships?
Would love for Gallente to have a speed between Cal and Min while having eHP between Cal and Min. Duvolle + Speed = <3
I would suggest base hull of something like
1000-1200 Shields
3200-3400 Armour
A rough 12.5-15% increase to CPU and a reduction to top acceleration and top speed for all tanks across the board.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.04 23:27:00 -
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Maximus Aurelicus wrote:Ok, I didn't read all the posts but your wrong mate. The better top speed in Gallente vehicles? Does''t mean anything but that they can run faster in a certain direction "only going straight" i.e. vector accelaration. Caldari vehicles have much, much superior turning speed and acceration making them much superior in the bumpy confines of dust for movement.
I'm surprised all of you forum posters don't know this, play the game before you post. A gallente vehicle needs an injector or afterburner just to keep moving steadily, especially if you put an even slight armor stack.
From what I'm hearing my guess is that you are armor stacking Gunnlogis and complaining like every other nerf crier.
Try this- Take any caldari vehicle, put an injector or afterburner, remove all of those dubious armor stacks and GO for a DRIVE. My guess is some of you will stfu afterwards. A Gunnlogi can run circles around Madrugers whilst the madruger tries to turn. A Onikuma can enter places Baloches can't due to smaller frame and even have turning capability making much better transport for the once again bumpy maps of Dust. A Python can aim it's primary turret about 5 times better then an Incubus.
The speed Gallente vehicles get, is GONE when it TURNS. Some of you clearly need to play the game more, and whine less. No hard feelings.
Okay this lecture would have been brilliant and you would have had a valid point in telling them to play the game if you had known which module affects tanks and which affects dropships.....
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.05 01:07:00 -
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Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Patrlck 56 wrote:AFAIK they explained it before releasing 1.7. Gunnlogis have faster initial speed, Madrugars have faster speed once they get going. Oh great, you summoned patrick...
That's a good thing though.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.09.05 01:17:00 -
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Having looked back at my previous builds I realise some of them cannot be properly achieved without certain sacrifices.
A Proto Missile tanks of mine with require a CPU extender over the plating reducing the EHP to 8920.
A fully plated tank will sacrifice its secondary Turrets for an Advanced Turret of any class and I believe a downgrade on an AT-201 to a basic hardener.
Less EHP for DPS trade off, but still as I see it more than an Armour tank.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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